There’s been a lot of discussion, some of it heated, about various zones that need revision in light of Free to Play. One zone that I see discussed time and again is Angmar and with good reason. The Eastern half of Angmar is a very group-oriented zone, making it hard for many players to actually finish all of the content in the zone. Angmar was already revamped once, back when Volume 1, Book 12 was released. So what needs to be changed now? I have a few ideas.
1. Leave quest flow alone.
One of the things that Angmar has going is a good quest flow. If you follow the quest chains, they take you to each quest hub you need to go to. This needs to be left alone.
2. Solo and Small Group content instead of Full Fellowships
The one knock that Angmar has on it these days is that it’s nearly impossible to get groups for the many quests in Eastern Angmar. That being said, I’ve been knocking around Angmar the past couple of days and I did see people playing the content in pairs. While there wasn’t an overwhelming number of players on the landscape, there were some soloers and pairs doing quests in Himbar. This should be made easier across the board. If a given quest is already a full fellowship quest, it should be made into a small fellowship quest, adjusting mob strength and such to accommodate. If it’s already a small fellowship quest, make it a solo quest, again adjusting mobs to accommodate. There are, however, exceptions.
3. The City of Carn Dum and Circle of Despair needs to remain untouched.
Despite the need to scale the difficulty of a good many quests in the zone, these areas need to be left as they are. They’re absolutely meant to be played through as a group experience. It’s supposed to be extremely dangerous to go there alone. It’s the heart of the enemy. Leave it be.
4. Certain Instances need to be scaled.
Angmar still has some of the best group instances, both full fellowship content and raids, in the game to date. It’s a real shame that more new players don’t get to experience the challenge of Urugarth, Carn Dum, Barad Gularan or The Rift of Nurz Ghashu. Usually, when they do get to run it, it’s with a buch of level capped players that faceroll everything they come across. For that matter, I can solo most of Carn Dum and Urugarth with my level 75 Minstrel. These instances need to be returned to prominence. After all, they were end game at one point.
5. Landscape Raids need to be scaled and instanced.
I can already hear some of you grouping enthusiasts screaming at me by this point, so this just might send you into absolute fits. But hear me out. There’s two landscape raids in Angmar: Bogbereth and Ferndur. It’s been a very long time since I’ve seen anyone advertise to do these raids. They’re on landscape, so they don’t scale. Meaning once you hit level 60 or so, the challenge to doing these is gone if you ever do get to run them. I can think of no reason not to build an instance, make it scale and add these raids to the instance finder. If this never happens, then it’s just wasted assets being sold in the Store.
6. Angmar Battle Instances need to be added to the Instance Finder
There’s three different instances you can access just outside of Gath Forthnir. They were fairly popular when they were released, but since then they’ve fallen largely into disuse due to a few different reasons. The gating behind two of the instances is one problem. In order to open up the second instance, the first instance needs to be completed X amount of times. Then the second instance needs to be completed X amount of times to open up the third. When this was end game content, that was all fine and well and good. Now, it’s just annoying and keeps more people from running this content. The rewards you could earn from these three instances could be added to Skirmish Camp Vendors. Or you could just leave the NPCs in place with their quests and change the gating so that each instance need only be completed once to unlock the next quest. It’s been requested on the forums many times that these instances be changed to accommodate players who didn’t have the chance to do them before Moria came along. Isn’t it about time?
7. The Seven Swords instance needs to be fixed and reinstated.
The prerequisite quests for this instance are still on the landscape. I managed to do this once with one of my characters. It was a fun instance. Due to some problem with it, Turbine shut it down. It never found its way back into the game. It really needs to be fixed and added back in. It had decent rewards, wasn’t overlong and was challenging on level. Bring it back!
Edit: It seems I was wrong on this point and the instance is active. If you haven’t done it yet, go get a friend or two and get it done!
Conclusion
This is all my opinion on what would need to be done for a real Angmar revamp. Doing so would do a lot of things for the game, such as making it a viable route for reaching level 50, simplifying content while still leaving some group content in the mix and revitalizing assets that have lain fallow for some time now. As you can see, that’s a tall order, the magnitude of which may not be something that could be accomplished in a single update.
That being said, there are two zones I’d like to see revamped before they touched Angmar again. Those being the Trollshaws and the Misty Mountains. Both of those areas are in much bigger need of a revamp and perhaps even added content. Angmar’s main problem isn’t the amount of content, but the difficulty players have finding other players around their level to finish existing content. It’s for that reason that I don’t think we’ll see an Angmar revamp again anytime soon.
June 21, 2012 at 8:16 am
What I find annoying about Angmar when running my alts is that I can’t even touch the right part of the map unless I do the epic (or I have a death wish and want the watchers to zap me dead :p ). When I run my alts I can care less about doing every single epic since I usually change zones to see what each offers. But Angmar I only went to do my pages (class quest) and that’s about it. I hated having to do the long epic just to get to the other side of the map..
June 21, 2012 at 8:52 am
You can just do book 6, without the rest of the epics.
You’re right Bryandt, the Trollshaws need it bad. I dont think I know of anyone who’s ever quested there, except for the 40-42 Tal Bruinen area, and thats because theres not really any other options for that level range. I like the look of Angmar, and these changes would help it massively. I usually go in there, do the epics, Aughaire quests (Fem armour) then a few quests round the minor hubs. I’ve never been further than the Dwarf camp, except for epics. It’s a real shame for such a great zone.
June 21, 2012 at 9:07 am
My main quested both in Trollshaws and in Angmar mostly.
Didn’t touch Forochel and barely touched Misty Mountains (except for the epics) also didn’t do Evendin…
(My alts did all those though – it’s nice to have alternatives ^_^)
June 21, 2012 at 8:37 am
I love Angmar. Every section of it cries out about what was best about LotRO during SoA’s release. The Landscape Raid’s we’re great, it’s a shame I never see them getting done any more so the idea about Instance them is good one. I agree the City of Carn Dum and Circle of Despair should not be touched at all. They are fantastic area’s and really well designed.
I agree on almost all your idea’s bar one. Grouping. The game is more and more becoming a Solo/Small Fellowship thing and it’s sorely lacking true Group Content (i.e. non-instance, landscape quests) and more and more of the game is being converted to suit the Solo/Small Fellowship style. I miss grouping up with 5 other’s for group content, it’s what built Kinship’s and Friendships. I hate to see Angmar lose the great Group content and be scaled and adapted for Solo/Small Fellowship play.
I’d also hate to see the Epic line being changed to allow other’s through to the east side. It’s vital section of the story and I’d hope to see more of in later Epic’s but it sees Turbine likes quick and easy content now to the old difficulty of the past
June 21, 2012 at 12:47 pm
I agree in that I love Angmar the way it is now. It’s hard – the right side of it is mostly fellowship – and it makes sense that way. It’s Angmar, do you really expect to run in there with a couple buddies and bust the place up? The western side is already *almost* completely soloable, and I’ve always used it to get to lvl 45 to get my LI’s. Even the Malenhad area has a good number of soloable quests that will grab you a lvl or two, if you do the soloables in Imlad Balchorth and Gath Forthnir. There’s solo content – people are just unwilling to do it for one reason or another.
As for the fellowship quests, I’d say people have to options. If they really want to do it on lvl, I understand that this can be hard, and so something might need to be changed here, to allow those people to do that. Otherwise, if you just want to see the sotryline of the quest, come back and do it at a later lvl, when you can solo it. Depending on your lvl, it can still be a challenge to solo, and a good test of skills.
June 21, 2012 at 8:54 am
Nice thoughts though with #4 regarding Carn Dum, Urugarth, and the Rift: While I would love to see these scalable, I fear that Turbine would “separate” them into wings like they did with Helegrod and Fornost.
I would hope that Urugarth wouldn’t be split up as it wouldn’t make sense really. The only splitting points are when you go towards Lhugrien, and also when you towards Lâmkarn/Athpukh. I feel that Urugarth is laid out nicely enough that a quick diversion to these bosses isn’t a big deal (especially with the shortcut tunnel from Lhugrien to the back door of Morthrâng’s area).
Carn Dum could possibly be split up between the castle itself and the rest of it. But I personally wouldn’t want it that way either. When you enter the Carn Dum instance, you have a choice to make to go left (to get your keys) or straight (to go to the castle). I think it’s that choice and how unlinear CD is laid out is what makes it a fairly epic instance. Even if you want to just go to the castle, you should have to make your way there.
The Rift is a fairly linear raid (like DN) and if they could scale it without splitting any part of, that’d be best to me. The lock system works just fine.
I do support scaling old instances, I just don’t want to see Turbine apply their split instancing routine on CD, Uru, or the Rift. It worked for Helegrod since all of those wings are big enough by themselves. Fornost is questionable. I’m kind of annoyed by how they have all of the wings available in the Instance Finder but require you to do them in order anyway.
—
I agree with the landscape raids idea. I could just see entering an instance for Bogbereth, fighting through nests of spiders and finally making it to her nest where the broodlings reside. That’d be pretty awesome.
June 21, 2012 at 8:54 am
Point 6 is a complete mystery to me. What instances are you talking about?
My main went through Angmar, but being mostly solo, I had a hell of a time trying to get content or finish fellowship and small fellowship quests (alone or with the few players I could find running around).
I have to say I agree with all you have said. I never did the landscape raids because nobody ever does them anymore, for instance.
I actually managed to do the 7 swords instance in my main (a little over the level). I didn’t even know it was shut down. It’s really a shame.
I would actually love to get a fellowship to stroll around in east Angmar with my mini (she’s in the right level for that now and actually questing in Angmar) but most VIPs are over-leveled and premium players just don’t buy Angmar QP (a shame because I still find it one of the best ones around – if not the best).
June 21, 2012 at 9:19 am
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/The_Battle_for_Aughaire
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/The_Battle_Before_the_Rammas_Deluon
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/The_Battle_of_Rhunendin
The first two instances must be completed roughly 20 times in order to unlock the next instance in the chain. They’re accessed through the NPCs pictured in #6, on the ramp outside Gath Forthnir near the Stablemaster.
June 21, 2012 at 9:35 am
They must be completed in the server, It’s not necessary for each person to complete the instances 20 times (of course, every time there is a reset on these counters it will take ages to get it up again with the current population in Angmar not even bothering to do these).
They seem fun!
June 21, 2012 at 9:38 am
They are fun.
I’ve played the first two instances. Sadly, I’ve never played the third and likely will never get the opportunity to do so unless some revisions are made.
June 21, 2012 at 1:59 pm
YES!
“6. Angmar Battle Instances need to be added to the Instance Finder”
That was the first thing I could think of when I read “Revamping Angmar”. If we had nothing else, I think these would be a good one. …and it can’t even be that difficult to add them to the Instance Panel! They are already instances, just their accessibility is nearly impossible. Like Bryant, I have seen the first two but that weird gating/resetgate thing seems like there is no way to actually ever access the third volume.
“5. Landscape Raids need to be scaled and instanced.”
Very good point. Those too are basically wasted “content” since they are out of the way low-level-travel-raids.
June 21, 2012 at 9:10 am
I find it a nice distraction to head into the angmar instances with my mini although there is one multi phase boss towards the end that I’ve not managed to get down. Scaling them would be a good thing to see, although I think they’d also get split into chunks.
I tend to only visit the zone to get the epic story stuff done and rely on other locales for levelling and pages. Mainly because as I usually say when referring to the place the feel is almost too oppressive and the music isnt that good.
Never got to see the inside of the 7swords place. Did the preq’s once and once I found out the place was closed “for repair?” I’ve not bothered going back. Which is a shame as it did have the feel of building towards a good conclusion to that particular story thread.
Generally speaking the place shouldnt be solo-ified but wouldnt be harmed by small reductions in the need for players as it is no longer an endgame zone. I’d maybe add a couple more stable points with swift options at the huntercamp near the deathline and dwarfcamp up on the hill and maybe over at the camp you visit during the tailend of part 2 of volume 1.
Adding things into the finder can’t be bad if it stops content being ignored or unused.
June 21, 2012 at 9:14 am
Forgot to add that they really need to add maps to the angmar instances with some vague indication of how to get unlost.
June 21, 2012 at 9:17 am
I did the 7 Swords instance a couple weeks ago. Have you been there lately?
June 21, 2012 at 9:33 am
On the splitting of instances:
This usually happens when an instance is extremely long. Fornost, for example, took roughly 6 hours to complete from start to finish. That’s including quests outside of the instance. Now it has been split into four manageable chunks.
If they split Urugarth, I could see it split into two halves. It’s long, but not horribly so.
Carn Dum would likely be split into three or four instances. It takes at least 4 hours to complete that instance from start to finish.
Rift I could see being split like so: First two bosses are one instance in the IF. Next boss is an instance, then the next boss gets his own instance. The the Balrog.
June 21, 2012 at 9:57 am
Oh, I didn’t know the Seven Swords instance had been closed. I did it duo with a friend a while ago, when we were on-level or maybe a bit under. It took us quite a few wipes to figure out what was going on in there, and I think we were on our last attempt before it would be locked for an hour when we finally beat it, but we had a blast!
I have another character halfway done with the prerequesites. I guess I won’t be hurrying her through them now. I do hope they fix it.
June 21, 2012 at 10:00 am
There’s still a deed associated with turning in all the swords. That hasn’t been shut off to the best of my knowledge.
June 21, 2012 at 10:12 am
When did you last check that? It wasn’t very long ago that I finally finished it with an alt.
June 21, 2012 at 10:14 am
Hmmm… It has been some time, but I don’t remember it ever being fixed. I could actually be wrong on that one. I’ll go check it out and report back.
June 21, 2012 at 10:31 am
I did the 7 swords instance a few weeks ago on my champion.
June 21, 2012 at 10:36 am
Ok, yeah. I’ve just entered the instance. I guess I just missed this one. I’ll fix the article to reflect it. Thanks, guys.
June 21, 2012 at 10:36 am
I agree that east Angmar at least could use a revamp to scale down the full fellowship stuff. I tried every night for a full week to get groups for Gabilshathur and Myrkworth quests (arena, Imlad Balchorth, etc). I advertised every day on the LOTRO forums, in game on /glff, /lff (angmar), /kinship, and small kinship alliance channel. Not one person wanted to join, and I’m on Brandywine! The largest server!
It’s such a shame. I only got to experience a little of Angmar when it was endgame because I reached lvl 50 a few weeks before Moria came out.
June 21, 2012 at 11:06 am
Whew! When I read that headline I thought another total solofication of a region was coming, relieved to see it was just speculation. I agree some of the group stuff can be reduced to small fellowship, since it’s so hard to get a full 6 person group there. I also think the area around Barad Gularan needs to be utilized more. Have it be a Limlight Gorge type area where you need a group to take down some of those elite giants, carguls, etc down there, for daily rep.
But, never break up CD or Urugarth into mini-instances. I love how sprawling CD is, and they will never do another instance like that again I’m sure.
June 21, 2012 at 11:14 am
I would also add that the non-instanced area around CD and Urugarth is underutilized. That area is too cool to not have more to do there. It used to serve as a barrier for people to reach the instances unless you were in a group, but now with instance join you don’t even have to see that area unless you want to pick up the quests for CD at that hub.
June 21, 2012 at 6:47 pm
I still loath the Instance Join/Finder at times. No one knows where anything is now. Lots of people have never travelled through Carn Dum proper or found the entrances to the Moria instances (and picked up associated quests even).
June 21, 2012 at 8:31 pm
That’s not entirely true. Certain epic quests late in Volume 1 actually take you into the landscape are, The City of Carn Dum” outside of the instances. But, yeah, I wouldn’t mind some quests there as long as they didn’t scale down the difficulty of the area. Given the difficulty of the mobs there, I think a series of small fellowship quests would be plausible.
June 21, 2012 at 11:43 am
Don’t split Uru or CD, scale them if anything. I would love to go for 75 Helgcham instead of another Foundry run.
June 21, 2012 at 11:47 am
I personally don’t think Angmar is really even close to the top of the list of zones needing a revamp. As you say yourself Angmar actually has pretty good quest flow which is something that can’t be said about some other zones. I mean I too would like to see some of the flaws you pointed out fixed but since Turbine doesn’t have infite resources they always need to prioritize. I’d argue that since it is basically just another leveling zone these days that is the most important thing when considering what to revamp.
I think finishing Moria revamp (or at least the epic quest there which is just incredibly annoying because of the way it keeps sending you all over the place for meanial tasks again and again, it is also pretty badly out of sync with leveling quest flow there). After that at least TS, ND, and MM are zones Turbine should re-visit before going back to Angmar.
June 21, 2012 at 1:10 pm
I think we may get the 2nd half of the Moria revamp before RoR launches. If not before RoR, then certainly afterward.
I’d disagree that Angmar is just another leveling zone. Angmar is more closely tied to the epic story in Volume 1 than any other zone. Which I think would put it on the list for revamp.
However, we seem to be in agreement on what priority Angmar should take. Trollshaws and Misty Mountains certainly need a revamp. Angmar doesn’t need one so much because you have Forochel and Eregion to help carry you to level 50. Misty Mountains and Trollshaws are just a mess. North Downs isn’t in quite as bad a shape, so I’d put that lower on the list than Angmar.
June 21, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Angmar badly needs the Evendim treatment. Last time I was working on deeds in the zone people were screaming for help with the countless group quests. Folks were raging over the fact they couldn’t finish deeds to get the TP they needed to buy Eregion & Moria. Somebody even rage quit the game in regional chat.
June 21, 2012 at 12:29 pm
I like the idea especially about the battle instances! I think that they could be converted to skirmishes, because they have quite the similar play-style.
It could be also true to the Battle of Lorien.
June 21, 2012 at 1:48 pm
i agree with everything. nice job.
i always though that if a revamp is done, Hard places with 50k enemies like the way to go to rift should remain there untouchable, but maybe quests added to make we need to kill a few
June 21, 2012 at 3:23 pm
I’d like it to be a little easier to navigate around Nan Gurth. It’s often difficult to find on the map where you should start from in order to get to a given door, so you have to take the long way around if you end up on the wrong side of a cliff.
June 21, 2012 at 3:44 pm
1. Wardens need Muster in Angmar. This is a bizarre exclusion.
2. More horse routes. When Angmar was endgame, this was acceptable. Now? It’s goofy that I can’t travel from Bree directly to Garth Forthnir.
3. Totally agree about scaling. I don’t want Urugarth or Carn Dum to be split up necessarily and I certainly don’t want them soloable on-level… but I would like a reason to go there as a Level 75 player as opposed to just going for deeds.
June 21, 2012 at 6:32 pm
I totally agree with number 1 – that and a port to eregion. I fail to understand how both of these places are not under constant danger, or are “outposts in the wilderness” as other muster skills describe the places we can port to.
June 21, 2012 at 5:15 pm
I couldn’t agree more with this post.
And of course it has to do with a good balance. Keep it with a certain amount of difficulty, keep it frightening. But not impossible to finish it.
Every time I enter with a toon in Angmar, after a while I end with more than 10 or 15 unfinished quest lines, super hard to try them solo even with a few more levels. And it’s sad, because it’s a great zone.
(I bought it on a sale of 75 TP, isn’t that telling)
June 21, 2012 at 8:45 pm
Great article! I’m fairly new to LOTRO (<6 mo) and solo 90% of the time. While most of my time is spent solo, I am perfectly fine leaving some of the quests and/or regions largely to those who group – it is an MMO. I like your idea of scaling. It is sad when any old region is abandoned due to expansions. That said I have two problems with Angmar that you did not address.
1) The level 50 minstrel quest is noted as being solo but you have to go to Carn Dum and Urugrath to get the quest items. Unless there is a passage that I can't find, there is no way to get there without a group. I don't like the idea of bypassing quests by buying items at the AH or through skirms, but that was the way I went.
2) The Epic quests require far too many trips back and forth to Rivendell. As a solo. I'd love to see that altered somehow.
I completely agree that the Trollshaws should be revamped but I disagree with your thoughts regarding the Misty Mountains. I was comfortable with the flow and the quest levels. Evendim is awesome though, so if they could make all regions like that, Turbine is free to revamp any regions they choose.
June 21, 2012 at 10:38 pm
Class quests do not take place solely in Angmar. They also cover the Misty Mountains. The ones for the Rune-Keeper and Warden classes also spread things out to Evendim and Forochel. It’s marked as a solo quest because large parts of it are soloable. The level 50 class quests are a three tier deal, with only the third tier actually requiring a group if you want to gain items the traditional route. That being said, it has less to do with Angmar overall.Your concerns here have been raised before. Turbine answered them with the aforementioned Skirmish Camp solution. For Moria class quests, they simply awarded the legendary traits earlier in the quest chain without changing anything else. The MO here is the path of least resistance.
As integral as Angmar is to the Epic quest chain of Volume 1, Turbine has already done a lot to simplify this. Perhaps they could add more travel routes to Angmar, but anything more than that is beyond the scope of what would be involved in an Angmar revamp. Thus, I didn’t mention it here.
The problem with the Misty Mountains is similar to that of Angmar: too much full fellowship content. That could be scaled down a hair, and it wouldn’t hurt to fill in the gaps between Gloin’s Camp and Goblin Town with a few more quests and stable points.
June 22, 2012 at 3:16 am
Exactly my point of view… there is enough quality content in Angmar, just that it is hard to find groups to do it on level, so the content should either made easier (not requiring a group) or scalable.
June 22, 2012 at 5:15 am
I wouldn’t like to see the group quests go. A group of 6 of us are levelling up, and we just had great fun doing Dol Dinen. Having large swathes of landscape which is full fellowship content makes much more sense to me than having a full fellowship quest at the end of a solo storyline *cough* Tomb of Elendil *cough*.
I’d much rather see much more solo-centric areas like the MM made fully soloable. In my opinion the best way to have group content is all bundled together in 1 area so it is structured like a solo area for a group (i.e. your generally working on 3-5 quests at a time). Yes its not run that often, but pre-organised groups can have a lot of fun with it.
I also wouldn’t mind seeing the instances split into wings. Perhaps it’s because I never saw the instances unsplit, but I just don’t think raid locks work that well for this kind of content. I’ve never ran all of Helegrod in 1 week, I have however done it all in a month. To get me to invest enough time in 1 raid lock cycle, the reward would have to be good indeed. Likewise with CD, the locks reset every couple of days, I’m not sure I could get it all done before they do, all be it the keys make it a bit easier.
June 22, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Angmar is by far the best zone in the game on level. It is as evil as Tolkien spoke about. Bleh to the soloing of Angmar, get a group and learn your skills.
Uru, best 6 man in the game IMO. Mobs from every walk of life in there. Decent on level gear drops and tons of deeds/Tp to be earned. Scaling CD and Uru would be awesome.
7 Swords Quest – loved it, good story line and interesting finish.
Gating East Angmar is good, otherwise too many low level and ill equipped toons will try to get in. Then the crying it is too hard followed by nerfing of the landscape. For those that like pie and flowers there is the Shire. Angmar is for slaying evil and questing with a sense of danger. Mirkwood is the only other place that even comes close to feeling like evil is in the world.
The Rift – what a raid! Top raid in the game. I feel sad for those who have never run it on level. Very few places and concepts has Turbine come up with to match the SoA days. If Turbine ever gives us a XP lock, I’ll do up another toon to lock in at level 50 just to stay in Angmar.
June 23, 2012 at 10:08 am
I still get a kick out of all the groupers banging on about soloers… LoTR should be accessible to all kinds of gamers, not just one type and frankly the area is dearth of players because its so group bent. Thank goodness marketing is getting that soloers are their biggest customer base and are gearing the game for them. More soloable content for those of us who want to game when we want, how we want and on our own time schedule and not have to wait hours for people to get online then only to see them jump offline at the most inopportune times. Make the rewards visually/statistically diff for group and solo so that the groupers can have their egos coddled.
I love Angmar because its so creepy and icky. Hitting that invisible wall of death was such a hoot the first time, hope they dont screw with that like they did with lothlorian.
June 30, 2012 at 8:53 am
The Seven Swords instance is fine. I’ve run it with three characters in the past 2 years and had no problem with it despite being overly difficult on-level.
July 4, 2012 at 12:09 pm
I don’t see why Turbine can’t break up longer instances in such a way that you have a choice of playing through or doing it in pieces. You already had locks anyway, why couldn’t they work it so that the different parts are enter-able at the lock points.