I’ve been thinking lately on whether LOTRO needs a “Raid Finder” or not.
You see, I’ve recently discovered just how great Skirmish Raids can be to kill time and to get some nice rewards. I’ve also come to realize that while my kinship may not always have time, I wouldn’t mind participating in a Draigoch raid before the lock is reset. In fact, there are a couple of nice pieces that I wouldn’t mind having for my main (a Guardian) in both of these scenarios.
The problem is, that I usually miss out on people advertising in the GLFF (Global Looking For Fellowship) chat room when they first start up the group, and by the time that I notice they’re usually full up on tanks or unwilling to accept a Guardian in Overpower (and yes, the latter is bit of a perception problem in my opinion).
While I could go about solving my problem by starting my own groups, I’m not yet comfortable enough with myself in raid situations to put myself in that role. So, what I’d really like to do is to be able to throw myself into a queue and just go about my business, much like I can do with the “Instance Finder”. That way I could go about doing quests or whatever else I’d like, and when the raid is ready I could hop on in.
But while it’s simple to request a feature, it’s hard to comprehend sometimes what implementing that feature really means to the player-base and the game. I’ve been trying to think of what issues could arise from implementing a Raid Finder and I find myself asking the following questions about the system:
- How would leader be determined?
- How would loot be determined?
- Would there be a bonus to health and marks similar to the Instance Finder?
- Would there be a way to make sure that a character is actually geared for a particular higher-end raid?
- Could you vote to kick someone out of the raid?
- How do you prevent people from rolling on things their class/role cannot use?
- Would we have to wait for cross-server instance capabilities to really get full use out of a Raid Finder?
Even though it makes me nervous to read about some of the complications that World of WarCraft has undergone with their implementation I still think that it’s a better solution than to wait in-game and watching chat for someone to start up a raid; especially when it comes to some of the more “relaxed” Skirmish Raids. I also think that this feature would have a good possibility of opening up the raid content to a lot of players who may think themselves too busy or too isolated to participate in this kind of content.
So as I dwelled upon this more and more I thought that this kind of theoretical debate would be perfect for our CSTM readers and so I bring these questions to you now:
- What do you think about LOTRO implementing a Raid Finder?
- If Turbine was to implement a Raid Finder what features do you think it must have?
- And finally, what issues must it be able to resolve?
March 21, 2012 at 9:07 am
I think it would be nice to have it for skirmish raids, as those are not really raids, just another skirmish with some more people. There are not really tactics involved, so a leader isnt neccesary.
Problem is going to be the real raids and a leader to properly lead it. To succeed a draigoch PUG or Watcher or anything else that is a true raid, you need someone to point out tactics. A lot of the people that join the global raids dont really know the tactics (not always true ofcourse, had some amazing groups, but more than less people had no clue what to do). If you use the Instance Finder and get dumped into a raid with 12 people, it will be plain luck if there is one with leading skills. Solution: Add a tick Leader, where you can let the game know, that you are able to lead the raid you want to attend. The Finder can then only get groups together if there is atleast one Leader.
Another problem will be group composition. What if you end up with healers that are not proper traited, tanks that are DPS traited, etc. The part where you can choose your role is not good enough. You can easily choose the tank role when you are an OP traited Guard, but you dont want to tank every raidboss in OP. There is a reason why people ask for /inspect before they invite, raids are still harder than 6mans.
Summary: Good idea for skirmish raids, wouldn’t use it for proper raids unless they develop a better tool for it
March 22, 2012 at 9:42 am
There’s some really good points in there. I especially like the Leader idea.
March 21, 2012 at 9:33 am
In theory finder tools are good for finding groups.
In practice they’re being used by already made groups to gain a buff.
I have a similar problem to your guardian in overpower as I play my mini as dps yet when I try and join groups people see minstrel and assume I heal. I’m not flagged as anonymous so red traits and dps focussed LI’s are there for all to read. The phrase “I’ll join as dps” seems to vanish when people are fixated on the fact that all mini’s (or guards) can do is heal (or tank).
As much as I hate quitting groups I have done so a couple of times after joining as dps then being told by the healer that they’re going to retrait dps, worst case was a mini healer that said it.
Granted for the “proper” raids the more traditional role may be better suited but for skirmish raids it’s pretty pathetic how blinkered people can be.
March 22, 2012 at 2:33 am
i’m sorry, but i just don’t get it. why roll a mini if you want to dps?
i played a guard as a main for a long time, and i haven’t played in OP mode more than 20 mins, just to see how it feels. i rolled a tank for the purpose of playing a tank. i rolled a RK knowing i would have to heal in groups much more often than dps-ing. and it’s quite good, because i like healing and if i wanted to be just dps i would have taken my hunter to lvl 75.
i’ve organised a few instances / raids and there’s one thing that really makes me want to kick a player:
you get almost a full group then you ask in glff / lff / kin / friends for a healer. and then you finally get a mini , and he tells you he wants to dps – because he suddenly decided that his main role isn’t good enough for him. mate, get over yourself, you want to dps, go solo. healers and tanks are scarce enough as it is without them wanting to dps instead of doing their class’ main role.
i apologise if my tone seemed a bit harsh, but after trying on the raid leader’s shoes a few times, you start to realize just how diverse people are.
and now to the point of the article:
completely agree with andy, they’ll be used just to get a buff. i would only use such a tool for skirm raids, as i have more or less constant groups for proper raids and instances.
and even skirm raids start to fade away, with some nice loot to be had at kindred with the last 2 factions and some spider eggs
March 22, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Minstrels do some pretty decent DPS while debuffing and providing fellowship buffs at the same time. They can do this while staying power neutral and healing themselves and/or dropping aggro if they get in trouble. Don’t knock it til you try it…
March 29, 2012 at 1:41 am
sorry for late reply
i know that minis can do some decent damage / buffs, and i know they are great to have in a fellowship even as a non-healing class. the problem i’m referring to starts when you have absolutely no healing class in your fs, and you get a mini after 15 – 20 mins that says he wants to go dps.
i have a side-note here, first time i ever ran HoC i was very close to not taking along a mini because 1.we already had a mini and 2. the second one wanted to dps. i agve it a shot and the fellow provided some amazing input on the instance and bosses, in addition to ensuring a nice smooth run with no wipes etc. so yes, i know the value of a non-healing mini
March 21, 2012 at 9:45 am
If they had a robust enough tool, I think a lot of this could just be determined by initial setup questions… But more importantly, people could decide after the fact when they’re in the group.
I think the main thing it needs to do is the most simple — identify a bunch of people who WANT to do a raid and determine their general roles. If things need to change beyond that, I think there’s ample room for groups to decide a lot of this other stuff on the fly.
As it gets more complex it does seem like it runs the risk of never finding any raids that actually do every setup point someone might care about. But you could argue that if you want that much control, you still have the ability to just create a raid yourself and manually add people like we do now.
So I don’t know, I say give people the option even if it’s fairly simple. See what happens.
March 21, 2012 at 10:18 am
I have been in many PUGs where the person who initially does the advertising passes leadership to someone else who knows the raid better after recruiting the group. Of course, Imladris is a small server and I don’t think I have ever joined an end-game group that a few people didn’t know each other, so generally the group has a good sense of who can lead the raid. (Of course there are memorable exceptions!)
As far as a “raid finder,” I agree that in a well-disposed group you could adjust for roles, leadership, etc once the raid has formed up. The current IF doesn’t support this well, since it dumps everyone into the instance as soon as the group is formed – you can’t talk to each other before you travel. (I think this is probably one of the reasons it is used to give pre-made groups buffs more than to actually find additional members.)
An additional concern with raids is time commitment – some are less than an hour, some are five. Yikes. People always want to know what we’re running before they join a raid.
I agree on skirmish raids, though – those could very easily become IF-enabled with no problem at all.
March 21, 2012 at 10:25 am
The only tough thing on my server (Firefoot) is that a lot of PUG skirmish raids start on Thursdays and Fridays and by Mondays and Tuesdays of the next week, everyone is on locks or cooldowns. Finding 12 people who want to run the same Skirmish gets tough during that part of the week. I still like glff because I have 4 75s. I might be on a toon with locks, but can contact the leader and log out/log in on another toon to join the group. I wouldn’t even join a “Raid finder” if I was questing on a toon with a lot of Raid locks. Come on Turbine, do away with the 1 week Skirmish Raid locks. What’s the point of that now after several months of 12 man skirmish raids? Make it bi-weekly at least.
March 21, 2012 at 10:43 am
In all honesty I don’t think a raid finder would work. For a number of reasons.
Firstly a lot of raids are long, and I find it extremely unlikely a raid is going to complete all the wings of a raid in a single sitting, which means your going have people looking for raids who already have locks, that means a) you wait for a group who all have the same locks.
b) give everyone the locks of the most locked person, at which point someone may want to do it from the start, and you’ve just stopped them doing that.
c) you have to incorporate locks into the finder, so people can choose if they are happy to pick up locks.
Secondly people in general are far to picky about what classes they have. Even in a 3 man instance I frequently have people leave on me because they don’t deem the set-up viable, that problem is only going to grow with more people.
Thirdly your extending wait times by not allowing jiggling of the party during formation, many people have multiple raid ready alts and will quite happily switch to produce more balanced parties.
The only way you’ll get a party in which everyone is happy is if you have a horribly complicated interface and long wait times. I think a better implementation would be a lobby (maybe even cross server) where people can advertise raids that are open and what roles they want to fill, basically an official form of globallff, which cuts out all the non “looking for fellowship” things that get said and make thing more organised and clear to see what groups are being formed.
March 21, 2012 at 11:05 am
Although I understand and sympathize with the motivation for wanting a Raid Finder (I’d like more opportunities to join groups, too), I think that moving in this direction would just simply be an extension of the problems with the Instance Finder, rather than anything really helpful. It has been pointed out many times by others, but what LOTRO needs is a better, improved version of the Fellowship/Grouping panel that basically does what GLFF does but in a more systematic way. Someone (the leader, usually) posts a group for a specific instance, which appears on the panel list, along with an indication of things like level, desired classes, etc. When people click to join the group, the leader can accept or reject (hopefully, with an explanation). If accepted, they are added to the Fellowship automatically. If the posted group is not in your level range, or if your class isn’t selected, that group would appear gray to you in the panel (raid locks might be another complication). This shouldn’t be rocket science, and I honestly don’t see why LOTRO doesn’t follow DDO in implementing this, rather than relying on glff for this purpose.
March 21, 2012 at 3:55 pm
I agree, a lobby-like setup similar to what DDO has implemented would be more useful than just randomly assigning people to groups based on roles they may or may not be spec’d to fill. I don’t know how to go about rolling in the IF bonuses to a system like this, but I’m sure someone has a good idea.
March 21, 2012 at 11:14 am
For raid skirms yes, for everything else no.
March 21, 2012 at 11:28 am
I agree. The group composition for “real” raids is a very complicated beast.
March 21, 2012 at 12:44 pm
There’s a few things I’d like to see happen before seeing raids added to the instance finder:
1) Raid locks need to go. Especially for skirmish raids. Seriously, if your biggest concern is people farming raids for gear, you don’t actually have much in the way of concerns. This game is already full of abstract, nonsensical gates to various things (not just raiding). Arbitrary limits just need to go away sooner rather than later.
2) The notion that you can handwave away the need for Tank-healer-dps/support in tier 1 also needs to go. Yes, Turbine has done a great job of blurring the class roles for various classes. At least they have when they aren’t busy breaking various class skills over their knees like dry twigs. That being said, they still haven’t reached a point where most groups can do without a tank and healer. Sure, some of the more experienced players could get away with that, but not everyone who could use the instance finder has that much time to put into the game to get to that point. As long as instances are balanced around Tank/healer/whatever-else-you-have, that’s not going to change. No amount of press releases and wishing really, really hard is going to change that.
If they can’t balance tier 1 three mans better than they have for instance finder ques, I don’t hold out much hope for a raid finder doing any better.
March 21, 2012 at 1:07 pm
No, no raid finder servercrosses!!!
I love to play with people, who search for raids in my lffg-chats.. Even if it takes a couple of minutes longer, i do not want to play with ppl, who are even not on my server…
i don’t want this anonymous from wow, where you, as a person, is a no one.. with 1500+ ppl kins and so on..
Raidfinder for casuals raids like filikul, watcher or draigoch, but not crossserver and NOT for the bigger raids (for the problems, merry announced)
March 21, 2012 at 7:07 pm
I’m on the Imladris server (so very small and a number of end game players just transfered off) and getting raids going in my timezone (Australia) is far from easy.
I think a general raid finder for skirms is find, be it to make the whole group or fill a couple of spots.
But what I really want is a cross-server raid organiser, that would let you chat with ppl, maintain ‘raid friend’ lists and pull a group together for the end game raids, like Orthanc.
Using forums, etc it would be easy enough to find people in ones time zone but on other servers and then use an in-game system to contact, chat and group with them.
No doubt this would have a lot of issues, both technical and otherwise, some of which could be solved by having TWO weekly raid locks, one for local server only runs and another for cross server runs. That way people can still do there in kin runs, without being locked out from helping a cross server run.
No doubt I’m dreaming, but at the same time, depending on your timezone, small servers like Imladris are dying from an End-Game point of view and while having a server that doesn’t lag, less competition for resources, etc is nice, it would be good to be able to hit the really hard stuff as well.
March 22, 2012 at 5:42 pm
Is the Aussieplayers group defunct (too) now?
Ouch.
March 24, 2012 at 11:26 pm
That pretty much merged into the Strength in Numbers kin, which was how we kept raiding and did Orthanc. Half of that group then transferred to the Big E, so since then, it’s been a bit like the old aussieplayers (pulling in a few ppl from other kins) in order to run stuff. Mind you, so far that’s only been Draigoch.
So all in all, it’s sort of still there and sort of not. The overall number of Australian players on the server isn’t great, and many are scattered around various kins, making quality raiding rather hard in my timezone.
Hence the reason for somewhat wanting a cross server raid option. Either in game or via websites/forums, I’m sure one could find raid ready players.
March 21, 2012 at 7:43 pm
i think this would be great for more end level raids but would take away from learning how to find groups and meet people in game at low levels it makes the game somewhat able to be antisocial in my opinion. this is why i was opposed to the instance finder because i think it takes a way a bit from the community although i recognize lotro needed it. I don’t think we need a raid finder (unless its locked to a certain amount per week or end game). I dont want the ability for low levels to hop on and do skirm raids.
March 22, 2012 at 2:40 am
I wouldn’t mind a Raid Finder, but it should be used for casual grouping. I think it would be a disaster using that to group 12 random people in more complex raids like Orthanc. It could be a great way to do skirmish raids that you aren’t locked out from if you can’t exactly remember which ones you’ve done for the week. I would do x-server and skirmish raids only for finder. I think Orthanc and Draigoch is too technical for 12 random people to get together due to the fact you can’t make a program to measure experience level or personal skill with these raids.
So for this Raid Finder, it should have an option if you want to be the leader or not. The x-server would get 12 people together providing at least one person wants to lead so they can set up raid assist and such. Other options could be classed based (2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 capt, 6 cc/dps (with 2 cc max)). Finally a “check” to fit these 12 in a skirmish raid where nobody is locked out for the week.
For resolving issues, what I wrote above without bugs (yeah, right) criteria wise putting the group together. Finally, it should be up to the leader to control loot and to control other aspects of the raid (which is why it should have a “leader” option for folks wishing to take that responsibility)
March 22, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I’d say that simple 12/24-man content like the Turtle and Helegrod would work well for a Raid Finder, and *should* be added to the Skirmish Finder.
For many of the others (Watcher is notable), PUGs fail on them all the time. Draigoch 24 is pretty simple to pug, but I see Draigoch 12 fail often, because too many people are either bad at this game or just don’t know the mechanics.
March 22, 2012 at 11:34 pm
I think a sort of “post your raid” system that others have alluded to would be the way to go. Using the IF as the basis for other players to join may be useful and in fact probably half the battle but the critical thing for a raid to be successful is having a leader who can direct the action. 3/6-man content generally is helped with some knowledge and certainly on T2 you need somebody who knows what they are doing but for a raid regardless of tier you NEED somebody because the fights are simply too complex to go on the fly.
Anyway with that preamble out of the way I think the ideal thing to do is keep the IF panel as a “join up” mechanism but also have an option (call it Instance Leader) which allows someone to create a new open raid group. It should do a couple things:
1) Require the prospective raid leader to set the Raid, Tier and Sections to be completed (e.g. OD Tier II Wound and Fear; Fords of Brunien Tier II, ToO Tier 1 Lightning and Acid…etc).
2) Raid leader sets class minimums and maximums and I say class because the current 4 categories in IF simply aren’t enough clarity for raids. Maybe, MAYBE, there would be a way to provide a bit broader of groupings (a tank is a tank, DPS is DPS, CC is CC and heals are heals) but some individual classes are just neccesarry or so useful as to be class specific (Burgs for Draigoch, Cappies in general)
3) Raid leader sets loot rule including descriptive text (Round Robin w/ Master Looter, “1 teal per person only roll for current toon to use”)
After the above 3 steps the raid would get posted as an open raid, which the IF tool would then try to match folks in the queue to…that is the average raider could simply hop in IF like normal, select 12 and or 24-man and tiers they are interested in, they can eliminate individual skirms or other raids they don’t want BY LOCK (so I could select BG but click off Lock 3 since I just don’t feel like fighting the Lieutenant tonight). Each potential join up woudl get the ready option where they would see the proposed raid, which locks are to be hit and the loot rule, if they decline they go back in the queue if they accept they get added to the raid pool. Once you get the 12 or 24 needed the leader has the option to launch and then everyone gets one last chance to confirm or drop (if they drop at this point they would get the 10 minute IF lock out).
The big thing is you need to provide a bonus to the potential leader who has to put this together (and probably will need to have some restrictions) as well as a bonus to those who join up. I think the thing would be for the R/L to get the +5%/+50% bonuses automatically, everyone else in the raid would get the diminishing bonus based on how many raids they were willing to run just as with the current IF implementation.