We know a bit about Draigoch, the new big bad coming with Rise of Isengard. He will be the new 24-man raid boss and is basically a giant dragon. So large we will be essentially only fighting his head. We saw concept art of Draigoch earlier this week to give us an idea of what this beastie looks like.
But does Draigoch break The Lord of the Rings lore? That seems to be the major discussion of a recent forum post. I’ve snipped out the major questions from the post and the responses from Berephon, Turbine’s official Tolkien lore know-it-all (pretty sure that’s not his official title… but you get my meaning).
How can Draigoch be a great dragon? Wasn’t Smaug the last of the great dragons?
Smaug was the greatest of the Great Dragons remaining. Tolkien never said, nor even inferred that he was the last (in fact, I believe it was in one of the Letters that he actually debunks that idea himself.) [source]
And here’s some information about the Tolkien letter Berephon was mentioning:
"Because no other dragons are mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, one might conclude, as Tolkien’s proofreader, Naomi Mitchison, did, that there were no more dragons after Smaug. In a letter to her (25 April 1954), Tolkien responded: "Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own." Tolkien goes on to say that perhaps one sentence in the trilogy might be misleading: "there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough." To Tolkien, however, the statement implies "that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature." [source]
Why is Draigoch so much larger than the other great dragons we currently have in game?
From the number of dragons that are involved in the Sil, they clearly come in many shapes and sizes (including the Great Dragons.) Thorog was certainly one of the Great Dragons, though perhaps at the lower end. The dragon in Forochel probably falls somewhere between Thorog and a drake. It wasn’t too impressive.
Draigoch is definitely one of the Great Dragons, somewhere between Smaug and Thorog. [source]
Berephon also responds to a question asking if the size of the dragon is unrealistic:
…it is frankly more consistent with dragons as they appear in the works of Tolkien (and I would say probably smaller still than Smaug.) Having seen Draigoch in action, he fits just about where he needs to. [source]
We haven’t seen anything but concept art so far but what are your thoughts? Is Turbine stretching the limits of Tolkien lore with Draigoch or does it sound like they know what they are doing?
July 15, 2011 at 2:23 pm
As the concept art has no scale reference, it’s pretty hard to tell just how big he really is. But Smaug was too large to fit more than his snout into a dwarf-sized hallway, which him pretty enormous, so it’s certainly not inconceivable that a good-sized dragon would have a head the size of a Volkswagon. That would put the body at about the size of a bus, with the tail and wingspan being pretty dang huge … but still smaller than Smaug.
-The Gneech
July 15, 2011 at 2:33 pm
haha, reading that all I could think of is “RUN THE VOLKSWAGON IS GOING TO EAT US!!!!!”
September 14, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Not to mention, we’ve seen dwarf-sized hallways. Dwarfs build some damn big halls.
July 15, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Before ive seen screens of what it will look like ingame, im not sure to already make a decision whether its lore-breaking. However i am very curious how they gonna pull this off as fighting his head only immediately remind me of my classic games on the snes, donkey kong country fighting the birds head etc
July 15, 2011 at 2:59 pm
I agree with Chewienl, the first thing I thought of when I thought of the head was the Lunar games, and other early rpgs like that. I’m curious about fighting just the head as well.
July 15, 2011 at 3:15 pm
I don’t think the issue is quite as clear cut as Berephon seems to imply.
I also find it rather curious how he dismissed interpretations of other Tolkien scholars without a single argument to the contrary and does not really provide any evidence for his interpretation, which can be just as valid or invalid as those made by scholars before him… especially since the letter in question does not talk about “great dragons”, merely about dragons, which includes drakes, worms and other “sub-species”…
July 15, 2011 at 5:56 pm
I don’t see why they should be concerned at all about the opinions of so-called Tolkien scholars. This is Turbine’s game. They are free to interpret the source material as they wish whenever there is a grey area.
July 16, 2011 at 5:52 am
It may be a Turbine’s game, it’s not however a Turbine’s IP. And if you read carefully you’ll notice that I did not deny Turbine or Berephon the right of interpretation of the source, I just pointed out that neither Turbine nor Berephon are the only interpreters of Tolkien’s fiction and they do not exist in a vacuum. They’re certainly free to their interpretation, but it does not have more validity than that of other scholars, or for that matter of any of the readers. I merely found it curious how they’ve dismissed work of other people by calling it interpretation and what not and forgot to mention that what they’re doing is no different at all.
Having said all that there are far more lore-breaking things in the game, and the question of how lore-breaking this dragon will be (if at all) can only be answered after we’ve seen how it was implemented. It may look good in theory and on paper, but “feel” and come over completely different to a character in game…
July 16, 2011 at 2:04 pm
It seems Tolkien himself was the one who dismissed the other interpretations, from his letters.
July 17, 2011 at 9:12 pm
My point is that these so called “Tolkien scholars” have absolutely no relevance to Turbine’s task at all and there is no reason why Turbine should consider them in the slightest.
July 15, 2011 at 3:16 pm
This is going to sound offensive and I apologize in advance, but the spectacle of a bunch of lore-nazi trolls saying they know better than Berephon and actual letter passages that Tolkien himself had written is going to be like a car wreck that is just too fascinating not to watch, even though I shouldn’t be enjoying the disaster.
Here’s some great research Detinationlove has done on the official lotro forums: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?407767-Where-exactly-will-the-dragon-come-in&p=5535438#post5535438 and here’s what he quotes:
“Because no other dragons are mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, one might conclude, as Tolkien’s proofreader, Naomi Mitchison, did, that there were no more dragons after Smaug. In a letter to her (25 April 1954), Tolkien responded: “Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own.” Tolkien goes on to say that perhaps one sentence in the trilogy might be misleading: “there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough.” To Tolkien, however, the statement implies “that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.”"
And here’s the website Destinationlove refers to: http://www.cep.unt.edu/~hargrove/dragons.html
Look, I am hardly a Turbine fanboy: I dislike a lot of ‘power’ items in the cash-store, I am disappointed that there is no new PvMP map, I am disappointed that there are no new starter or lower-level PvE areas being made, if I had my druthers, Rk’s would have never been allowed because they break lore too much, etc., etc. … BUT on this one particular subject, I can’t imagine how anyone can contradict the Author of Middle-earth in his own words above by saying that a Dragon less powerful than Smaug would be inconceivable at this point in the LotR Online story.
July 15, 2011 at 3:39 pm
You know. I love the works of Tolkien and i love the nuance and detail of the game. But just once i wish turbine would honestly say “We’re adding this because it would be fun” I don’t think anyone would truly hold that against them.
July 15, 2011 at 3:50 pm
I mean in all honesty they have broken the “lore” many times. I man Gandalf and Aragorn do not seek the help of random people throughout the LOTR (us players). The Balrog was killed by Gandalf alone on the highest peak of the lowest dungeon not by a raid of a dozen people. If you want to get technically you could really tear the game apart. I would rather have them add a dragon that is not mentioned at all, then have us fight the Nazgul, or kill the Balrog, or the Wathcer which was defenitely not in the lore. I think this new dragon “breaks the lore” a lot less than things that are already in the game.
July 15, 2011 at 3:53 pm
I am not bashing the game I think it is amazing and I love playing it and I am a huge Tolkien fan. The fact is, if the game were 100% according to the lore it would not be much fun. I think turbine does a good job of keeping it interesting without going too far out of bounds.
July 15, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Just to make things clear. The fighting of Durin’s Bane in Ost Dunhoth is an illusion. Ah fear spell of sorts on your group (or I guess you can say it’s all in your head). Gandalf still is responsible for the vanquishing, the 12 people just thought they did it.
July 15, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Thanks for the clarification Goldenstar! :-*
July 18, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Yeah thanks for the clarification, I had not gotten to that part of the game as I am only level 42. Thanks
July 15, 2011 at 6:30 pm
I’m just excited about another 24 man. Please let it be indoors with no snow! That turned Helegrod into Hella Lag!
July 16, 2011 at 2:54 am
Who cares about lore, it’s a video game. Lotro needs to compete with Tor and Wow in order to be successful. I think Turbine is finally figuring out the game needs to be more mainstream to succeed.
July 18, 2011 at 4:46 pm
I would hope a lot of people care about the lore. The lore and setting of Middle Earth is the one main feature that separates LOTRO from all the other fantasy MMOs.
That being said, I do think sometimes people can take sticking to the lore to the extreme. I think it is ok to bend the lore that Tolkien created, but not to the point that it makes it no longer recognizable.
September 14, 2011 at 7:09 pm
And they can’t even use all of the lore, either.
July 16, 2011 at 3:12 am
It’s a GAME. I don’t care if they do break “The Lore” … LOL
September 14, 2011 at 7:11 pm
It’s a Game, yes, but with a basis on something. A few minor breaks here and there over some obscure thing is fine. People will always squabble over the small things, as long as something major doesn’t happen (like climbing sauron’s eye-tower-thing to poke it out).
July 16, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Dragons, lore breaking? Not really. Even Tolkien said himself that dragons were around. I know anyone’s next sentence would be “But if there were dragons they surely would have sided with Sauron”. But my counter would be, “Would they?”. I see no reason not to have a dragon within RoI, I just hope I can run the raid…..
July 19, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Dragons certainly were still around in tolkiens world at this point. Smaug was mentioned as being the only one powerful enough to destroy the ring but that does not meen yhere werent other great and powerful dragons about. The only lore breaking i could possibly see here is if they entered the dragon in to early. If we arrive in isengard while the hobbits and story are there a giant dragon would be pretty hard to not have enterfered with the fellowship. i am anxious to see how they work this beast into the story.
July 19, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I think the original question had been answered quite well and offered a reference to Tolkien’s letter. If there is room for interpretation then Turbine has the ability to interpret that in a way that best suits LotRO. I think it’s an interesting discussion but I don’t think people can emphatically say that it MUST be one way or another. I once suggested that swimming underwater be added to the game. Someone replied that it wasn’t in lore. Really? You have to have documented evidence that people swam underwater?
July 16, 2011 at 10:15 am
Indeed! What about the neeker-breekers, for instance? They never attacked anyone when Strider and the hobbits passed through the marshes, and there’s no reason in the book to think they were any larger than a few inches. There’s no evidence that Orcs got anywhere near Bree, yet in game they’re all over the Northern Bree-Fields and Lone-Lands. Etc., etc., etc.
July 16, 2011 at 4:30 pm
I’ve always thought that the neeker-breekers in the book were simply frogs that the overly active imaginations of the frightened and away from home hobbits turned into demonic creatures.