Dreadhed asks:
I have a question about exploits, I am not totally sure I understand what they are. I was Pugging Library and School the other night and after we finished library I left the instance and returned to pick up the book quest for the extra mark. One of my fellowship told me that I was exploiting the game and would be banned by Turbine. I was pretty surprised at this, banned? That seemed kind of harsh for just doing what the game allows me to do. In a way it seems like entrapment to me, if Turbine does not want you to do something they should fix the game so you can’t. Especially since they failed to fix this "exploit" that everyone I had run with before was using in the most recent patch. So if Turbine knows about something but does not fix it after several patches does that mean it is ok?
Next we went on to School and the player was adamant about not doing the boss room reset to gain the superior Skirmish Mark. I was fine with that as I don’t think the kite method is all that hard. But again how is that an exploit? Folks have been running GS, killing the devoted and resetting for months now, with out a fix from turbine and that seems and equal offense to me? Another example where Turbine is aware of something but chooses to not act, so is it an exploit or not? It all seems pretty subjective to me.
I personally think of myself as a very nice player, ethical and helpful to others. But the whole concept of Exploits confuses me, if it is in the game, it is in the game. If it was a mistake by the developer why punish the players for finding it? Just fix it. I have no intention of wanting to violate my user agreement and getting banned, I try to be a good ethical player. I would hate to get into trouble for doing something that did not know was wrong.
This is an EXCELLENT question, Dreadhed. I’ve been a long time stalwart against the use of exploits. What I hope to do here is to layout a good guideline of what’s an exploit as well as reasons why certain types of exploits don’t and likely won’t see a ‘fix’.
What is an exploit?
An exploit, as it applies to MMOs and specifically LOTRO, is most easily defined as a method of completion which utilizes either broken mechanics or lack of proper counter-mechanics. Exploits commonly occur through use of some very simple and common tricks. These ‘tricks’ are generally also something that contains an element that is key to keeping with the greater overall goals of the quest or instance. As such, these issues are not a simple fix.
If you … you might be exploiting.
None of the following things should ever be needed in order to complete a quest or instance. If you use any of the following techniques/tactics/methods, please be aware that you are very likely exploiting:
- Leaving instance and re-entering without resetting the instance after having already caused the “challenge” quest to fail.
- Leaving group, then interacting with monsters inside that instance prior to the auto-boot.
- Wiping the entire group, except for a feigned minstrel in order to bypass monsters. Failure (“wiping”) is never meant to be rewarded with advancement in an instance space.
- Entering a completely cleared instance on a character that did not clear it in order to complete a quest, especially a challenge mode quest. Non-repeatable, collection type quests are more of a grey-area, but in terms of “challenge” quests and other auto-granted daily quests it is a clear exploit to take a free pass.
- Intentionally causing a monster to go into “anti-exploit” (question marks above head) mode and keeping them there to allow yourself time to heal, deal with adds or anything else. Anti-exploit mode doesn’t allow you to hurt the “exploited” monster however, neither can it hurt you, this does still however allow you an unintended advantage.
All of the above items are issues that Turbine knows about…
Ok, So if Turbine knows about this stuff, why isn’t it fixed?
That’s a good question to which, believe it or not, I have a solid answer.
In regards to all exploits involving the way “Challenge” quests are granted and can be easily reset:
First of all, if you were meant to kill the devoted in The Grand Stair or meant to have multiple tries at certain other challenge quests, they wouldn’t fail in the first place. When you fail a challenge quest that’s the instance telling you “ you screwed up, no extra reward for you, please come back after resetting and try again”.
Next,here are some of the possible “fixes” that I can think of and all of the “all-solving” ones have some really bothersome drawbacks:
- Issue could be fixed by not allowing the “challenge” to be bestowed after the killing of any monsters in the instance has commenced. However, what happens when your minstrel (or anyone really) has to bail mid-way and you need a replacement. That replacement will no longer be able to get credit despite the fact that the instance has been, thus far, cleared legitimately within the challenge parameters.
- Issue could be resolved by making the challenge quests go on cooldown for the day upon failure. Or less severely for an amount of time approximately twice what it takes to re-run the instance the right way. However, if Turbine were to do this, they would be discouraging people from running the instance again since most people don’t have a couple hours to wait to be able to try the challenge again. Giving people reasons NOT to run content is a horrible idea.
- This resolution is actually pretty good for the instance(s) it applies to: Once the part of the instance that the challenge applies to has been cleared, stop challenge quest from being granted at this point. Minor issue with this (barring it simply being too complex to be worth implementing) is that if someone comes in late to help polish off the instance after passing by the challenge portion (for the rare cases where challenge is not a part of the last boss fight itself) they won’t be able to complete it. However that shouldn’t be an issue as that character will have been no part of the challenge portion itself.
Aside from a bit of analysis, how do I know if something is an exploit?
Unfortunately, analyzing the situation is generally the only way to know. If you spend some time in the Instances and Raids Forums on the official LOTRO forums you might pick up on some of the exploits that are out there but there is no official, organized list. The lack of a list is due in part to the fact that it would spread the “how-to” of exploiting but, in my opinion, the lack of list is causing more people who don’t know they’re exploiting to do it rather than stopping those that would knowingly do it. Fact is, those that will or would do it knowingly already have it figured out and already do it. Having an official and visible listing would give Turbine a solid ground to stand upon in regards to disciplinary actions against those that exploit. Without a listing and solid definition, it’s possible that many who receive disciplinary action didn’t know that they did anything wrong until after the fact. It is likely also that many who do know what they’re doing go uncaught and unpunished.
Closing Thoughts
Exploiting is a sensitive issue. No one likes to be called a cheater and no one likes their accomplishments and the rewards of those accomplishments to be devalued by duplication through use of exploits.
It may not always be clear cut what is and isn’t an exploit… But please, any time you are asked to do something that seems a bit odd, think about it bearing in mind the information I’ve given you here.
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This article is part of the “ Ask Elborigorn” series, where I encourage CSTM readers to send questions to me at: elborigorn@casualstrolltomordor.com . I will then answer the question either with an entire article or as part of a multi-question weekly article.
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December 29, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Nice post, Elb!
December 29, 2010 at 3:47 pm
As far as I can tell since the November update, Turbine has fixed the whole “resetting the Challenge” thing. If you fail the Challenge (e.g. kill the Devoted in GS, let the books burn in School, etc), leave the instance and come back in, the game will not bestow the challenge again. It wasn’t advertised in the release notes but I’ve seen it first hand.
December 29, 2010 at 5:00 pm
Did not know this, but glad to hear it!
December 29, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Thanks for this well thought out answer Elb.
From the standpoint of someone who GM’d on another MMO, players are always going to find exploits in games, no matter what (no game is completely bug free, and often enough it’s a matter of using things built into the game just not as intended).
When you first hear about them, especially if it’s because you’re in a situation where you might be exploiting yourself, it’s kind of scary, but there’s a simple solution: play the game as intended. Sure, there’s the temptation to look for an easy work-around or shortcut (even more so if others are doing it), but is that why you are playing, so you can bypass the standard gameplay?
Ultimately, even if “everyone else is doing it”, or you don’t have the time to reach end-game levels or high SMs, or if you don’t plan on competing (in PvMP) but just playing the un-competitive part of the game, you are taking advantage of holes in the game to avoid the game. (if the specific situation is unbeatable/playable, that’s a problem the devs would need to work on, but exploits aren’t for working around those issues).
If someone didn’t realize they were doing an exploit until they were told, they shouldn’t feel bad they should just find out how to go about their quest/instance/etc properly. If they know what exploits are however, and know there is a cheap way to get more out of something than they should, that’s on them and whatever punishment they get handed down (if caught) is theirs to take. However, exploits shouldn’t be avoided because you might get caught- they should be avoided because in the end they’re the wrong thing to do. I’m sorry if you want to get more points or have an easier fight or whatnot, but there is likely a reason why you get so many SMs for a specific skirm or why a specific boss is so hard – if you feel that the rewards/challenge aren’t implemented well, that’s something to discuss with the devs/community and bring to the table for everyone’s sake, not just find a workaround for you and your friends. (sorry for the long comment, I just have some opinions exploits given what I’ve seen in the past. If you disagree, that’s great, because really it’s just an opinion)
December 29, 2010 at 4:19 pm
I bugged and discussed on Bullroarer the fact that the GB side-quests (collection in particular) can be done after completing the instance or even switched to as a second side-quest completed in the instance. However, nothing was done about it. This applies to all instances with collection type quests in them too, but GB was the main one that was testing during F2P beta. The lack of communication from Turbine saying whether or not they considered it an exploit and were fixing it makes it even harder to ascertain. At least the GB boss resets were fixed and now only the chests drop the loot.
December 29, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Players will play the way they want to play, that’s the philosophy of Free-to-Play and the reason you can grind things that take a lot less time when infused with some money. In theory you could max all virtues, get +50 to all stats, get a 168% 250 morale steed, max crafting professions w/ ingredient packs, and speed just about everything up with tomes. All of those things you can pay for, basically paying to progress faster than other players, and all of them are condoned and encouraged by Turbine.
Exploits are similar, but the difference is an exploit doesn’t have the potential to enrich the community by way of investment in the game’s development. In that regard you could say that exploiting is a worse means to speed achievement than paying for it. But I think it all depends on the context and the particulars.
One example provided is Grand Stair. This is an instance a lot of people run because it’s quick. You could even say it’s an exploit that people run GS a lot and not the other instances, since I doubt Turbine intended to make the other instances largely redundant by going to the token system. Ultimately the goal of running Grand Stair is to get the tokens to buy the Moria teal gear. Exploiting is a means to get it faster or easier, depending on the specific exploit(tagging Nardur, reseting Devoted, reseting daily, there’s a few of em). Frankly I have no problem with this. Why? Because anyone who wants the Moria gear will eventually get it, and not through above average skill because GS is not a terribly hard instance to run and groups aren’t hard to find. Whether or not someone gets it faster or slower than me doesn’t affect my gameplay experience in any way, shape or form, just as it wouldn’t if they simply played the game for more hours a day than me. I got my gear however I got it, they got theirs however they got it, we both would end up with it anyways, and that’s the end of that.
Now this is not true of everything. There are some things that genuinely take skill and dedication to accomplish, and those things I would not want to see exploited. Any means to make the rare drops appear more frequently, for example, would be an exploit that impinges on other players. Likewise anything that has an open ended usage and can be bartered into the player economy, such as finding an infinite source of barter tokens and flooding the market with scrolls and potions at relative discounts, would be an exploit that needs addressing. Finally anything that is intended to be difficult content that requires preparation, gear, etc such as Barad Guldur, should maintain that same level of difficulty.
All of those things I’d be up in arms writing angry letters about. But people just getting something easier or quicker that any average casual player could and would get in a not exponentially larger eventuality? A hearty “meh” to the berating of those exploiters.
December 30, 2010 at 1:50 pm
“Exploits are similar, but the difference is an exploit doesn’t have the potential to enrich the community by way of investment in the game’s development.”
Not to be nit picky yet, but I have yet to be convinced that purchasing stuff off the store = investment in the games development. It may just = more profit for Warner Bros and Turbine. It is yet to be determined if he additional profit from f2p and the store leads to increased ingame development.
How many more devs have been hired by turbine and what are they working on? Would be a good question before we all believe that more $$ to WB and Turbine = more content.
December 29, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Quoting Alphaman on exploits – “you are taking advantage of holes in the game to avoid the game.” Sounds just like the LOTRO Store to me.
December 29, 2010 at 6:08 pm
LOL
December 29, 2010 at 6:20 pm
The difference being, of course, that those are official, offered by Turbine, aren’t against the rules.
I can understand the case against a number of store items, it’s just a different kind of argument (one with Turbine, rather than one with individual players) if you have that stance.
December 29, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Posting this anon.
Just joined a new kin recently and they have a no exploit policy. I like this.
Prior to this I was in a raiding kin that would exploit exploit exploit. I was less then happy with this and it was one of the reasons I left. Didn’t even know what exploits were until I did some pug runs.
My thoughts are if it’s an honest mistake based on positioning then it’s a let it slide thing. If it’s blatant or a policy to exploit to complete a run I’m against using them.
December 29, 2010 at 11:58 pm
Something interesting happened the other day. We were running GB maze and we wiped on the final boss, I needed to repair, as did two of the others, so we left the instance briefly, repaired, and came back in. The challenge reset completely for us, but the three that didn’t have to repair for some reason had the challenge except the arms had been killed. We had had enough of this run, so we decided to just kill the two bosses, no arms. The other three “completed” the challenge, much to their surprise, as we all thought we had failed it. Can’t really control things like that.
December 30, 2010 at 12:24 am
Nah, that there is a case of unavoidable mechanical bugging and is of no fault to the player. I have seen that specific scenario happen as well.
December 30, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Thanks for posting this Elb!
I think your rules are good ones and have been giving up on trying to gain the additional eregion mark from the school/lib quests. Although I don’t call out others for doing it.
I was thinking about the schools final boss room and the only way I have completed it without exploiting is to kite the room around the lower area while the other 2 put out the books. Once the books are out you get your superior mark. Some groups I run with just die after than and not fight the kited mobs. Come back and do a slow clear of the boss room to finish and loot the chest.
That seems to fall under the group wipe exploit? I also wonder about the tag the second boss and jump to your death tactic in GS?
However, I usually try to slowly clean up the kited mobs and then go fight the boss. Which leads to completion, that sometimes fails and we wipe. We can then come back and do the slow clear of the boss room. Yet that is not an exploit because it is the result of an unintented wipe.
Anyways thanks for the post good information to think about.
December 30, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Technically dying after successfully completing the challenge is not an exploit in this case, since it could definitely happen legitimately (as you referenced). and honestly, when you do that, in this case, you’re just cheating yourself out of some fun, I personally love that kite-fight.
December 30, 2010 at 6:00 pm
I know I have an unpopular opinion, but I have to admit: I like exploits. I don’t like farming them, but I do like finding them. One of the best things about raiding, in my opinion, is figuring out what makes an instance tick. I like figuring things out. That’s where a large portion of my enjoyment of the game comes from.
And the reason I like exploits is that more often than not, they make a lot of sense. Take, for example, having a minstrel flop and group wipe to bypass mobs. It IS an exploit, because you’re right in saying that Turbine didn’t intend for it to be used that way, but I love that exploit simply because it makes so much sense. With no glitching or real bending of the game, mechanics already in place can be leveraged to bring an advantage to the play. The key is in the creative combination of those mechanics.
For another example, something that was endorsed as a helpful tip on either CStM or LotRO Reporter – I can’t remember which – playing a burg, if there’s a mob you need in a group, mez that mob, run off the rest of the aggro, run back, and wait for the mez to end. The mob comes running, and you’ve essentially pulled just that mob, plucking it out of a group. Now, if minstrel flopping as mentioned before is an exploit, then this certainly is as well. But it’s brilliant. It works so well, and it works every time, without any real bending of the game mechanics.
Exploits like that I love, and love discovering, because someone had to approach the problem in a creative way and look at the tools at their disposal to put it together, and no individual game mechanic behaves as it shouldn’t.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with exploits like this, and just because Turbine didn’t intend for those skills to be used in that way doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be.
January 3, 2011 at 3:31 pm
@Dril, I think your first point is interesting and I wonder if the minstrel flop and group wipe is an exploit? I think of runs I have had in FG where to get to the final boss you have to wear those disguises. Well we had been going smoothly and aquired enough disguises to get half our fellowship though, then the tactic has always been to let the rest just die within rez range…even without the minstrel flop. I have run the instance several dozen times and that is the way we have always done it. But that is just the tactic to get there right? Or do you have to search all of FG to get disguises for everyone? Which would just be silly and a waste of time.
Anyways, we all wiped at one point and left to repair. Well when you leave you lose the disguise, we still had one of our fellowship who had the key and uniform, but everyone including our minnie had lost it. So we ended up coming back and doing it with the minstrel flop. It sure did not feel like we were exploiting, not with the repair bill! Anyways I understand how leaving and instance to gain an additional mark is exploiting. Or if you fail HM and leave to reset for an easier HM is an exploit. What I don’t understand is how using in game skills and abilities to your strategic benefit is an exploit.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, so if you figure out a strategy to do something using ingame skills more power to you right? I just can’t agree that the minstrel flop technique is an exploit. It is not “glitching” the system at all. It is just a wise use of your given abilities to play the game.
Like bear tanking turtle. I only sorta understand why that was an exploit.
December 31, 2010 at 6:18 am
Re: Drilorin
You are so right about using skills creatively.
I hate the idea that the devs came up with a way to solve each fight, and if you deviate slightly from it you are exploiting.
While deliberate deaths dont make sense from a roleplaying perspective, using drop aggro skills totally do.
If i was a DM running a campaign and they ran through a dungeon and survived till the end and then dropped aggro ( e.g made it look like they had portalled out so the enemies thought they were gone) – then all credit to them.
I would be more careful in the design of the next one, sure, but i wouldnt abandon the game because of it (i.e ban them)
Turbine have a very bad habit of wanting ‘a one true way’ and banning those who find creative solutions – even those that make total sense from a character view, not just the ones abusing software failures
December 31, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Clever solutions to mechanics issues in games is called “tactics”. Viewing a given situation in game and coming up with another way of approaching the problem is called “strategy”.
In EQ if the developers didn’t like the solution to a problem that the players found, they would alter the problem to fix that. But many many solutions can be found that game instigators have not explicitly thought of, and being creative is not exploiting.
There are examples of devs in LOTRO “fixing” things, and I have no problem with that at all. Invisible walls have progressively become tighter and tighter over time, and I have no problem with that, though it makes exploring less interesting.
The game is linear enough that I’m not interested in playing in an even more linear expected fashion. The comments Khaz makes above are exactly correct.
Until and unless an issue is publicized as “we will ban you if you do this before we can fix it”, it is unworthy of Turbine to go around punishing players for being smart, or for omissions or comissions by their developers in designing a scenario.
January 1, 2011 at 9:16 pm
As Sanya from Mythic once said: Once is an accident, twice
is confirming, and the cretin who used it a hundred and eighty
three times is so, so banned. If you have to wonder if it’s an
exploit, and you don’t /bug it, it probably is. If the game isn’t
*meant* to respond that way, it’s an exploit, whether developers
know about it or not. Awesome post Elb, and one that should be
shared basically genre wide!!! T
January 3, 2011 at 7:02 pm
Interesting! Especially since I had no idea what those floaty question-marks were — now I know that they are ‘anti-exploit’ mode. I agree that a big part of the issue is simple ignorance of what is or is not ‘allowed’ in the game, since exploits are generally not to be talked about.
January 4, 2011 at 10:56 am
I personally hate the way the anti-exploit mode thing works sometimes. for example in the library the second boss ( the archer guy) tries to run away often to fire some arrows. if he cant run straight away. IE at the start of the fight where he’s backed up against a wall .. he goes into Anti-exploit mode. usually during this fight he’ll go into this mode 4 or 5 times because of this.
And playing my hunter i’ve often had mobs that definitely can reach me but i have at max range go into anti-exploit mode. only to have them fall out of it when i get about half way to them. dirty cheating mobs i say!