Call me a noob, call me a casual player, or even call me lazy; it doesn’t matter. But for the longest time I’ve tank in LOTRO that has primarily “skated by” without doing a lot to improve my effectiveness beyond some preliminary glances at my virtues or traits. It’s only been in the last few months that I’ve really started paying more attention to these things. Before then I focused on leveling, then my alts, and then just getting through the epic story. However, now that I’ve been trying to run more group content I’ve realized that something had to change.
In most cases my ability to tank was not bad, but it wasn’t great. Sometimes I had no problems holding aggro, but other times it was much more difficult. At first I evaluated my virtues, and after arranging them some I determined that while the virtues could improve my defenses and my stats, there really were no that could directly increase my aggro-holding capabilities. I took a closer look at my class traits and felt satisfied with what I had in relation to holding aggro and I was pretty sure that my rotation was well-suited for my playstyle.
However, there was one thing that I had yet to try, which was Guardian’s Threat; a stance that increases a Guardian’s perceived threat, decreases armor wear from hits, and increases a Guardian’s block and parry ratings. It may seem silly that I never tried it before, but before our break in 2007 we never grouped that often and before we reached level 65 it didn’t seem to be that much of an issue. But more often than not of late as I’ve been grouping with more of the classes notorious for “stealing” aggro (hunters and champions) I’ve been really trying to figure out what it is that I can do to increase my own aggro. However, it wasn’t until I saw a rant by a player on My.LOTRO about Guardian’s not using Guardian’s Threat that I decided to give it a try, and I’m glad that I did because now it feels like tanking is all the more easier; in fact I remember thinking “this is Easy Mode” the first time I tried it.
So why didn’t I try it before? Well, like I said there were times I really didn’t feel that I needed an increase in my threat. Also, there were tendencies to blow certain situations off or even becoming passive about letting one or two mobs slipping through and hitting others. However, in my defense I also read several times upon the official Guardian forums that I should stay in Guardian’s Parry. However, I disagree with this. And this may have everything to do with my gear, traits, and virtues when comparing them to other characters, but for me Guardian’s Threat not only adds more threat, but it is the only stance that I see actively affects my block and parry within the character panel; although it is possible that the percent bonuses of Guardian’s Defence & Parry do not show up (which if this is the case, I think that’s a design flaw). So, unless I once again find myself lacking in some aspect of my tanking responsibilities or someone convinces me otherwise, this will be my personal stance of choice.
November 4, 2010 at 12:33 pm
It’s a good skill, glad you found it and use it. I haven’t played my guard in a while, favoring other chars instead, but I do remember this skill.
You mention not feeling you needed it before. I can understand – guardians, minstrels, and to an extent hunters are classes that play a lot differently in groups than they do solo. When you solo (or perhaps duo), guards and hunters and everybody for that matter don’t have to deal with threat as much, it’s all on you as the only player! Minstrels trait differently when they solo since they actually have to kill stuff… hunters have more time to setup traps and get focus-ready before a fight, etc.
It’s the one quirk in many classes in these kinds of games, some class roles are just different in groups but not everyone can group all the time so they have to be viable solo.
November 4, 2010 at 1:05 pm
I typically trait Fray the Edge and stay in Parry Stance.
Why Parry? When I use the parry chain and continuously use TTK, I’m doing decent DPS and popping conjunctions better than a Burglar. =)
Aggro: When I absolutely need to pull aggro, there are three force taunts. I also have an LI belt and 1h weapon with skill threat up/+perceived threat.
November 4, 2010 at 4:04 pm
I do have Fray the Edge traited as well, however while it’s good to an extent, I feel that because it’s single-target it doesn’t do as good of a job as having Guardian’s Threat equipped. Which is why I don’t have TTK either.
But I’m not against giving it a shot either.
I was lucky enough to get an LI with the skill threat up, but I still don’t have a weapon that I like. Maybe that would help and allow me to drop Threat stance.
November 4, 2010 at 2:09 pm
I stay in block and I only have problems when other people in the group are not doing their part to manage their own aggro, so they get corrected. My social circle has had a long standing motto, “You yank it, you tank it.” The entire group has to contribute to managing aggro. They didn’t give Ebb/Raise Ire to Champions to fill up their quickslots. They didn’t give Hunters the Endurance stance for giggles. This concept has been lost since MMOs have transitioned to solo leveling. This used to be one of the very first lessons learned when you had to group from level 5 up.
I advocate staying in a defensive stance because it’s my approach to tanking. You’ve got to SURVIVE the battle in order to tank it. You get the benefit of higher defenses AND access to AoE taunts or a threat leech.
And tbh, while pugging, all of the terrible Guards I’ve seen have all had Threat slotted. It’s a crutch for bad or lazy players who think they don’t really need to try to actually hold aggro because their stance should be doing all the work. The great Guards I know run in block or parry, depending on whether they have one capped already.
November 4, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Block was my “go to” stance for a long time and I can definitely sympathize with the “you yank it you tank it” aspect as well. However, it gets annoying in raids when you’re trying to get a reactive and you can’t because there’s 3 hunters and 2 champs all in their aggro stance and unable to understand why you want them to drop the hell out of it into a more raid/group friendly one.
November 4, 2010 at 5:50 pm
I could be wrong about this, but it was my understanding that the % boost to block/parry from the block/parry stances is not limited by the 15% cap. However, this would not be true for Guardian’s Threat because it modifies the underlying block/parry ratings.
November 4, 2010 at 7:10 pm
That is my understanding as well.
November 4, 2010 at 3:27 pm
If memory serves, none of the passive +x% bonuses show up in the character panel, since they don’t add a rating. So, if you mouse over your block rating and then kick on Guardian’s Defense, the percent to block will increase while the rating stays the same.
RE: Threat stance. It’s not something I use very often, but it’s a great stance to use when first starting with a regular group and/or doing new content. It gives more of a cushion to the group, so everyone is more free to test different tactics, rotations, etc. Once it all gets dialed in, then you can switch to parry or block (or OP). If you get some nice legacies on your legendaries to boost block/parry in Guardian’s threat, that’ll help defense-wise. That and Guardian’s Ward block/parry increase and duration.
So, yeah, if it fits your setup and your group makeup, then run with it.
Though, you can take my words with a grain of salt; I run almost exclusively in OP, solo and grouping. That comes with its own issues, but it’s helped me to break out of the “guardians must be in block stance/OP is for the Moors only” groupthink I was stuck in. It’s good to change things up now and again.
November 4, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Thanks Ed, I’ll check that out on the tooltip to see what I’m gaining/losing by being in the different stances.
Legacies are definitely hurting me, especially on a weapon. I’ve just started getting into the whole “legacy lotto” again after getting tired of it on my Guard. I still don’t have a weapon that I like, but I do have a belt that I’m satisfied with. Thanks for the suggestions.
November 4, 2010 at 3:44 pm
First post!
First, thanks for a great show and also the regularly updated news, tbh now-a-days it’s my main source of news other than the kin forums, so cheers for that
lol @ the wiki noob reference!
Long time Guardian I must agree with Gaylen. Yes, Guardian’s Threat does make it easier to keep aggro initially, but for long fights a defensive stance will help you a lot more. As Gaylen says, you can hardly keep aggro if the other part is not managing their aggro as well – there is no way of keeping aggro from a RK, champ or hunter going all out, if they are not helping you in any way.
In BG for instance, that 5% block will make an ubelivable difference to the fight. Remember 5% block is 5% more reactives which is a lot more threat than just spamming normal skills. We don’t tank for the tanking itself, we tank to protect our fellowship/raid from getting hit too much – whats the point in doing that if we get hit as badly as them ourselves?
For me, nothing is better than proper aggro. Challenge and Threat stance does help you keep aggro in a way, but in a way it’s just an illusion – you can’t base yourself on those skills for long fights. When the **** hits the fan you won’t be needing threat, you will be needing survivability…! My 2 cents
November 4, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Definitely some good points and thanks for all the compliments! Maybe switching back and forth would be a good solution as well. I’ll have to take a look and see what % rates end up being when in each stance.
November 4, 2010 at 3:49 pm
I’m not sure who was saying to use Parry stance. It has its defenders on the forums, but by and large it’s not much loved in the comments I’ve seen. Parry is okay for boosting DPS (via the Parry reactive chain) when you don’t want to use Overpower, but I don’t like it at all as a tool for tanking. Block stance is the way to go. Way better access to nice threat skills.
Block and Parry stances don’t add to your ratings, but they do add to your percentages. You can see the percentage if you mouseover Block/Parry rating. Not only do these stances add 5% Block or Parry, but they are allowed to go over the 15% cap. With Block stance and Guardian’s Ward up, I get 20% Block, and I haven’t specifically geared myself for Block rating. Guardian’s Threat can’t exceed the 15% cap.
Threat stance is a useful tool. I don’t like to call it a crutch. It’s particularly handy when dealing with a lot of mobs, especially mobile ranged mobs, or when you have a well-geared Champ who loves their AoE. Your healer will have to work a little harder, but I think most healers would rather spend more time healing the tank if it means they get to spend less time healing everyone else.
November 4, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Thanks Khloin, I appreciate the tips.
I hadn’t thought about the fact that they can go over the cap, which is a really good point. That’s definitely something to consider.
November 4, 2010 at 3:59 pm
When I had a high level Guardian, I usually ran in Threat stance when in groups. If I got into trouble, I could always switch to Guardian’s Defense.
Also, I found a decent belt with bonuses for Reflective Block did quite a bit to sustain my threat and my DPS.
November 4, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Thanks Bry.
November 4, 2010 at 4:19 pm
one thing I’d like to add to this or make a counter point on: You could also start in a defensive stance and switch up to threat if needed. Perceived threat is what I call an “Outgoing modifier” meaning that it actually multiplies your threat number as it leaves the “system” perceived threat is not a threat generation buff. See my post on Threat.
November 4, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Well, that all depends on whether or not you had a Lore-master who liked to run ahead and pull aggro before you could even catch up to him.
November 4, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Haha!
November 4, 2010 at 6:06 pm
In fact, old Guards will remember that Guardians Threat initially did not do anything unless you first started in a different stance and then switched to it because of some bug that was eventually fixed. Stance dancing is certainly an option, as several posters have suggested. Just remember that when you switch from Guardian’s Threat to a different stance you will suddenly lose a big chunk of perceived aggro. Not a problem if you have enough real aggro, but the problem is that you have no way of knowing that.
I think this will make an excellent topic of conversation for the Guardian’s Roundtable as there is clearly a wide range of views among the CSTM audience.
November 4, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Merric-
Glad to see you are still experimenting.
I came to the same conclusion as you awhile ago and I play my Guardian much like my captain – I switch stances and weapons mid-fight on a pretty routine basis. Gather up initial threat in Threat Stance, change to another stance depending on the mobs as well as change from my AOE weapon to one that doesn’t have that Legacy but hits harder (or if I need different damage types – Galadrim non-LI weps are good for this).
Play the skill bars, use cool-downs when they are useful and spam To The King for the DPS and Fellowship Maneuver opportunity and it is all good.
Its a lot of work to make your Guard look like an AOE Warden tank but your fellowship and healer will notice the difference of the effort you are putting out there in terms of less leakers and less healing induced aggro
cheers!
November 4, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Oh – one thing I do miss is the opportunity to jump in and out of Overpower on the fly using a 1 hander. Wish it would come back.
At the end of fights, help finish things up (especially if I was losing the race to zero morale), I would pop Overpower and hammer away then via a quickslot, pop my shield back on – only one mouse click. The requirement to manually dismount your shield (or flip to a 2 hander) is a few more steps. Enough so I don’t bother.
If anyone who used to do this and has found a better way than I, please post!
November 5, 2010 at 3:45 am
Switching between 1H+Shield and OP+2H I set up the quickslotbars so that the axe+shield+threatstance are in one row and OP+2H is in one row (and followed by my three big OP-skills). Being in threatstance and i have to switch to OP I just click the 2 buttons in a row to switch stance and equip big axe, then just continue to hit my three skills and i can hammer away. If needed and I have to switch back i can just clcick the three aligned tanking-buttons (threat+1H+shield) and i am tanking proper again.
Quickslots are not just for skills and pots, they are made to be able to switch weapons quickly aswell!!!
November 5, 2010 at 9:10 am
Hi Ulfa:
Yeah, switching stances definitely helps. Last night in one of the Annúminas instances I found switching was pretty good in some instances.
November 6, 2010 at 10:48 am
Although its been a little while since I’ve been out on my tank (been concentrating on levelling my Champ) I tend to stay in block for most fellowship stuff,and keep up Guardians ward and Guardians pledge. Don’t forget these skills, it makes survivability so much easier! I use Overpower when duoing with Adams Champ or when deeding, and if I’m doing a particular run with the kin where I have to keep mobs away from the rest of the fellowship I use Guardians Threat. Its a really useful skill and it does get used alot. When playing with a fellowship with fully geared up champs and hunters going mad on the dps, it can be difficult to maintain the aggro when not in threat. I never use Guards Parry stance at all – Ive noticed that I get pretty much the same parry responses as I would have in Parry as I do in Block, with the addition of the block responses, which also add aggro. I like the parry response chain the best but find I get the benefits of both if I stay in block. In the parry response chain I use retaliation + thrust + salt the wound + to the king. This is an awesome set of skills, I like the bleed from thrust which is enhanced with salt the wound, and to the king is one of the best skills we have, especially with the conjunctions. I also have Fray the edge traited to give 30% extra chance of popping a conjunction as well as the aggro grab.
November 7, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Looking forward to the Guardian roundtable!
November 9, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Merric you are a Lazy Casual Newb Player! (you said I could call you all that in the OP).
The good thing about playing a hobbit is that even when the tank goes down, we can still hide behind the corpse.
XXOO
November 9, 2010 at 10:41 pm
My Guardian is a hobbit – not much of a corpse to hide behind!