Today while browsing the world wide interwebs I found myself watching a video of a Russian LOTRO Server. The video was titled "LOTRO, Creeps in Forochel" and can be viewed on theLOTRONetwork.com or on YouTube. The video title immediately threw up a flag for me. Lets go over a little back story here.
Forochel is the region just north of Evendim. The snowy, ice covered bay is best known for its involvement with Volume I, Book 14. The area contains many mobs and a few very cool small dungeons and caves that are a real treat to explore. The zone has only one entrance from the south which means its "landlocked" you could say.
A look at the LOTRO Maps shows the location a bit more clearly. The Ettenmoors (Known as the Moors by most players) are the only current location of Monster Play. Monster play is the LOTRO answer to PvP, known as PvMP (Player versus Monster Player) in game. The Ettenmoors also have one entrance visible on the map, although you must use a stable or map to enter at as a Free Peoples player. So now that we’ve taken care of all the terms and underlying information, lets talk about this video and what it could mean for players in the future…
When I attempted to contact the post owner of the clip I received no reply. So I’ll say what I know, and leave it at that. In this clip, it looks like the Northern gate of Gram’s was opened at set to teleport Creeps out of the Moors and into Forochel! Check out the video to get a visual reference. From what we can gather about this clip, it was recorded during a beta event some time in October 2009.
So this got me thinking about the logistics of allowing creeps out of the Moors and into our main landmasses, as well as alternative means of opening up FFA (Free for All) PvMP.
Hardware & Software Issues
The first thing that crossed my mind was the amount of lag this would create. Imagine the lag of The 21st Hall at its peak, with full player movement and interaction thrown into a mix with waves of Creeps attacking players. Players attacking creeps and NPC’s attacking creeps.
The even greater issue is having that many players in one location at once. The current servers aren’t meant to hold that many character models in one place, all interacting together at the same time!
Now most of you are going to say "Well, they most likely won’t be together all the time". Well, that may be true but you also have to take into effect the software and game engine. The programming wasn’t made to allow for FFA PvMP anywhere anytime, that’s just how things are. And that brings me to my next point.
Player Interaction
So imagine with me…
Little Johnny Hobbit is running about doing his merry gardening and learning to be a big bad hunter in the Shire. He’s only level three right now, but in a few months he will be the master of the Moors and the killer of Creeps. If he lives that long.
Out of the blue he finds himself being punted over a small pond into the arms of a group of creeps wasting their time ganking poor hobbits for lunch.
Sound fun to you? (Well, the part about punting of Hobbits maybe). Being that hobbit would stink. Being that player, would be no fun!
There we find our next issue. Player interaction. But unlike Software and Hardware issues this problem could have been fixed with simple Lore.
Until the time that the Grey Company was formed, Rangers guarded the lands of Eriador protecting its people from the ravages of Sauron forces. Towns like Bree and lands of the Shire were protected from these evils and for that reason they stayed relatively tranquil and quaint. This all ended when the rangers packed up and headed south to help Aragorn. Saurumon’s brigands started moving in and messing up the place (as we see in Trouble in Tuckburrow and Defence of the Prancing Pony Skirmishes). So how will you stop these Orcs from killing people without corrupting the Lore of the books?
Lore Issues
Oh man, this is going to be easy! Orcs didn’t go buck wild and crazy killing everything anytime anywhere. The Orcs, for however dumb they may have looked, still had orders. Often these orders were much more focused than running into the Shire to kill a garden of veggies.
Tolkien didn’t have creeps running about killing at will. Sure, there were random rogue groups of Orcs or Brigands stirring up trouble in places, but not so much in Eriador.
Tolkien didn’t intend for Orcs to take over the world, and he didn’t create any precedence in his literature to support the idea of it happening. Does this make you want to cry? Well you’d be crying about the lack of Hobbits too when people stopped making new characters due to the annoyance of getting wacked in the first 20 seconds of game-play. Creeps needs goals, missions and the Dark Lords will.
Focus and Goal
In Tolkien literature, Orcs never really had any freedoms. It was the point Tolkien made by enslaving elves and twisting them into Orcs that creates a pattern of bondage and dependence on his orders. In the Ettenmoors players are set into a battle over keeps and outposts. These goals serve to focus players on targets that "The Dark Lord wishes to posses".
Out in the wild world running a muck, players would find themselves in a situation where Lore was no longer a driving force. Although it is possible that a creep could find themselves in Goblin Town collecting a quest from the Goblin King, or in the North Downs fighting south toward Trestlebridge to burn it to the ground.
This type of goal combat would require a new system to force Monster Players to "Follow Orders" given. This could come in the form of a "Rain System" where players cannot leave a designated path area. From the Nan Warthen to Trestlebridge along the road, no exceptions. The only issue there is that once the location is destroyed, its gone and forces the game to change storyline to accommodate the players actions. This is just not possible in this form, and sadly we are forced to look back at lore.
Alternatives
The alternative is nothing new, and nothing specially signature to this article. Its something that the Devs and designers have already expressed interest in and recognized as a alternative to the basic Ettenmoors fighting.
Skirmishes are the perfect venue for this interaction to take place. The controllable environment, the adaptable functionality and the opportunity to fit it to Lore gives the Skirmish system the a front row seat in the hopeful opportunity for further PvMP development. Countless forums and chat rooms have overflowed with players wanting a change or development in this overlooked area of game play.
We as players cannot do enough to express our interest in this system, nor can we say anymore than we have for the overwhelming need for faster paced PvMP action!
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March 5, 2010 at 5:15 pm
The problem with PvMP is that it has always been an afterthought. One developer described it as a mini-game for LOTRO, not a real PvP experience. Originally, LOTRO wasn’t going to have any form of PvP. It was later tacked on, at the end of SoA Beta, IIRC.
I honestly don’t see this changing. I would love PvMP skirmishes. I don’t go to the Moors but a skirmish setting I could probably get into. But the devs have already stated that creating PvMP skirmishes would take about as much time as creating the skirmish system we have now did.
For this reason, I think PvMP will always get the short end of the stick.
March 5, 2010 at 5:16 pm
ZOMG
Wow, you really thought this through.
March 5, 2010 at 5:39 pm
OMG. Just the thought of being able to creep in forochel had me bouncing around in my seat! Love it!
Looked like a skirmish with both sides getting ready to fight. Wouldn’t that be flat freaking awesome? I wish they’d give us more areas to fight in and skirmishing together? Yeah, awesome. When you’ve got two sides that are good at what they do and there to fight rather than chest thump or run back and forth from point A to point B, you’ve got a buttload of excitement and fun.
March 5, 2010 at 7:56 pm
There have been little hints here and there about PvMP in skirmishes. I’m sure this will happen eventually. PvMP on landscape though… not gonna happen. PvMP will always be walled off in very specific contexts.
March 5, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Personally, the idea of PvMP skirmishes just doesn’t appeal to me. It’s probably different for other players, but I play PvMP for its unique qualities, things I can’t get in a normal PvE environment. One of the biggest features unique to the ‘Moors is that it is a large, fluid, constantly changing battleground. When you log on, you don’t know who owns what or what kind of fight you’ll be in for until you actually get out there and take a look at things. Skirmishes, or at least in the form they are currently in, would remove that sense of being part of something ‘bigger than oneself.’
In fact, the only way I could see PvMP skirmishes working is if the skirmish instance had no restrictions to size or grouping requirement and was constant instead of generated at player request. But, then, how is that any different than a zone?
The basic skirmish systems, the method of point capturing and counter attacks, could take place in a PvMP environment, and I can see them being adapted for future PvMP use. But I don’t see skirmishes as the setting for this future. They’re just too restrictive for what a good PvP environment has to be.
March 5, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Nice. It would be nice if they could improve the PvMP, it has languished. More areas as Ranni suggest would be cool. I personally think there needs to be some cooler rewards for PvMP. I just don’t know what, and the balance to keep creeps interested needs something more enticing. The only reason I ever roll my creep is when I a bored stupid. Cause it is still more interesting than crafting
I like the idea of allowing creeps into the general world but there would have to be some real constraints, on what zones a lvl 65 creep could go frolic into. Some way to protect folks out doing quests from getting ganked in the middle of a battle with NPCs. When you go to the moors you know that is what your getting into so it works there, makes it more exciting even. Don’t think it would be as fun out in the rest of the world. Alot of folks don’t do the PvMP so getting jumped by a crowd of creeps could be upsetting to say the least.
Here is totally different idea, what about allowing freeps to battle freeps? To keep it lore acceptable it could be considered training exercises… I could see some pretty fun activities capture the flag, control a point, etc.
Never gonna happen…
fun to think about though.
March 5, 2010 at 8:41 pm
That video is pretty old news. It was only for 2 hours, was dev run and both Turbine and codemaster said immediatly that there was still going to be no open world PvMP, and that the Forochel event was a once in a lifetime deal.
#2 Most people don’t really understand this so I’lll just give a quick run-down
Freeps make lag, Creeps don’t
Now I know that you all are instantly thinking that this isn’t true, yes creeps do generate some lag, but the ammount is miniscule whereas freeps generate buckets of lag. Here’s why. Creeps have a grand total of 16 cosmetic looks for each Monster Play Class (2 at rank 0 and one at every rank but rank 2 after that). These cosmetic looks are all used on NPCs that are found elswhere (many of the higher ranking ones are in the Ettenmoors but they’re still on NPCs). This means that generating a creep in the landscape only takes a few more resources than generating an NPC (especially since creep models are based on NPC models if they aren’t NPC models, ask someone at Turbine to clear that up). A freep, on the other hand, is a whole different ball game. Differen’t character models, hair (style and color), skin tone, armour, cloaks (with animations), glowing weapons, emotions (which change the face), almost everything a freep wears puts more strain on your machine and the server when generating a freep. And the lag increases when there are cosmetic costumes involved.
Then there are the differences in ablities. Creep ability animations are not very flashy, shiny, or sparkly. Freep ones are, which puts more strain on the server.
I’m sure you can see what I mean but now I have some proof. Creeps have this thing called “lagdar” it’s when they use fraps (or something else thatputs an FPS counter in their window) and then turn around in a circle. It doesn’t matter how far away the creep is in the ettenmoors, there will be an immediate drop in FPS when the creep faces towards the freep raid. Facing towards a Creep raid will yeild an FPS drop of 12 frames if it’s a big one, or they’re entering your visual range.
March 6, 2010 at 3:30 am
Thanks for that information, Ivaneus. Very well explained
March 8, 2010 at 2:33 am
there’s no open world PvP in LOTRO, and never will be, because it is explicitly forbidden by the licencing agreement between Turbine and SZC/The Tolkien Estate. Same with freep vs freep PvP.
I can’t actually prove this; it’s been literally years since I read the dev post about it (it was during the closed beta; not that my claiming that proves anything either). but there you have it: the reason that PvMP is such an afterthought, and why there’s no open world PvP or freep PvP, is because it is considered by the licencors to be against the Tolkien canon.
March 9, 2010 at 11:28 am
Great idea! I wonder, though, would creeps play themselves in skirmishes or the various “lieutenants”? I suppose they could just play as themselves and it wouldn’t be any stranger than having a set of Earth-kin twins rampaging in Gondamon.
March 12, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Where I think PvMP would make the most sense for a new option, is when players finally start heading towards Mordor.
Imagine a zone where players would have to run the gauntlet several times to get to the next safe quest hub. Imagine the RVR zones in Warhammer Online. Creeps can gank within these zones and players will have to cross them several times to continue their quests taking them closer to Mordor.
July 5, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Well Turbine, therefore lotro is now owned by WB. Sean, whatever agreements they may have had may not be in effect now. Or WB may do just as they please like they are doing bringing lotro as F2P. The only thing WB is concerned about is what is going to bring them money. So, if it might make money, it might happen.